nrsv vs niv reddit
Proverb 13:10…Only by pride cometh contention… We have been deceived, for there is nothing good about it. Many people are unaware that chapter and verse numbers are only about 500 years old. But in the Greek New Testament, Jesus is rarely referred to as an anēr (an adult male); rather, he is typically referred to as an anthrōpos (“human”). Plus translating can be subjective. But I can see where these are in the New Testament because I rely on the Nestle-Aland and SBL Greek New Testaments which I read pretty much every day. Jesus Cleanses the Temple - Then Jesus entered the temple and drove out all who were selling and buying in the temple, and he overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who sold doves. But even verses that contain masculine pronouns can be gender-inclusive depending on certain factors. 2 Corinthians 1:12 For our proud confidence is this…. You can support my work for as little as $3 a month. I often use the NIV 2011, despite what I consider to be some arbitrary translation decisions. The ESV is known for not including even one female scholar in their translation teams. Perhaps it’s not the best translation, but it is not a misleading translation. “Rejoice”. Also consider the following: I agree, I don’t think the NASB is saying it’s okay to be proud in an arrogant, negative manner. How the Church (and society) was 2000 years ago is not the authoritative marker for how it should be for all time. ], The ESV, however, reveals its bias in Romans 12:6-8. Or is it better to just try to learn Greek and get a Greek Bible? I use douay-rheims + Luther Bibel + NASB + electronic interlinear versions when I need to do serious "work". It is very helpful. Moreover, the masculine grammatical gender is typically the default gender in Greek and in Hebrew for a generic person or a group of people which may, or may not, include women. ~ To acknowledge that 1 Timothy 2:12 and 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 addressed bad behaviour and were not meant to silence godly women and stifle their ministries. I’m pretty sure you’re way over confident on that one, Doug. In the NASB it states…A man’s pride will bring him low… Proverbs 29:23 and Pride goes before destruction, And a haughty spirit before stumbling. It makes a serious attempt to convey the meaning of the verses from the original languages, which includes conveying the genders intended by the original Bible writers! I have Always gone back and forth between using the NRSV and the NIV. On Bible Gateway the two words are put in single and double quotation marks respectively. I have not at all noticed an unnecessary use of masculine pronouns in the CSB, and I wonder what verses they are referring to. I "use" NRSV only inasmuch as I read along with it in church. I still look up the NET notes sometimes as they are mostly helpful. My main beef is that the pronouns of God are not capitalized and this feels like a slap in the face to me every time I see it.  The style of the CEB, however, makes it much, much, easier to read than the NRSV. Another reason is because the original biblical languages were gendered. Thx! Romans 12:6-8 contains no masculine personal pronouns in the Greek and no word for “man,” yet the NIV 1984 contains 8 masculine personal pronouns and adds the word “man.” Conversely, the NIV 2011, NRSV, CSB and CEB contain zero masculine pronouns and no word for “man.”, While there are no pronouns in Romans 12:6-8, there are five masculine articles in the Greek which are translated as “he” in the NASB 1995; this is not an inaccurate translation, but the NASB then also adds a few more masculine pronouns. Parallel (multiple), interlinear (with NT morphology)(), and many study helps (but does not have NKJV) Parallel Online Bible Option 1. For beauty, one cannot improve upon the KJV. . Thanks for this analysis, Marg. As long as people are reading scriptures in context, there is no problem. But by making such an obvious error, they have shown that they are not the Word Of God. It hurts when I read my bible sometimes lately because I feel vast aside even though I know that was not God’s intent. 24 (This was before John was put in prison. Although I suspect that most of the people I was exposed to weren't really academics. So on the one hand, God opposes the proud and yet the NASB would have us believe that it’s okay to speak proudly, be proud, and have a proud confidence as long as it’s all for a good reason. For there is one God and one mediator between God and humanity, the man Christ Jesus … (CSB, italics and underlines added). And you will desire to control your husband . The meaning is that God wants all people, not just men, to be saved, and that Jesus is the mediator between God and humanity, not just men. Yes, translations do vary and bias is an art form, but the physical form in which we are confronted by God’s word makes a difference as well. The Revised Standard Bible caused a controversy when it translated Isaiah 7:14 using the phrase "young woman" instead of "virgin", and this was believed to be a covert attack on the Virgin Birth, and to this day, many Evangelicals refuse to use the RSV or the NRSV bibles because of this verse alone. Required fields are marked *. I looked at some of the passages in the NET, and I was surprised by their notes. 2:8) or clearly refer to women (e.g., 1 Tim. (I discuss if Andronicus and Junia were among the apostles, or not, here. Jeremiah 13:15 clearly states “Be not proud…” And other verses state how God opposes those who are prideful. His reason? The translation is contradictory and incorrect. 14:26-40). Pride is what breaks up families, it causes nations to fall and it’s the reason why there are fallen angels in chains. You might enjoy a book out there that has the Greek in the middle (with English words directly under each Greek word), NASB on one side, and NIV on the other. Romans 12:6-8 (NIV 1984), The things which you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses, entrust these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. In my version of the NRSV (Zondervan (March 1993), 9780310902270 ), the commentary at the beginning of 1 Timothy indicates that this book was written by Paul although some scholars disagree with this conclusion. I constantly use the interlinear Bible in that app. I love its style and its accuracy except for verses about women ministers. … being born in the likeness of men. That’s too bad. I think it also conveys into English the meaning of common idioms better than other translations. As for the Christian Standard Bible (CSB), it is an accurate translation and beautifully written. What does didaktikos mean in 1 Timothy 3:2 and 2 Timothy 2:24? … being made in human likeness. I am 60 now. More on the roles of episkopoi (bishops) here. The New Revised Standard Version (NRSV) is an English translation of the Bible published in 1989 by the National Council of Churches.It is a revision of the Revised Standard Version, which was itself an update of the American Standard Version. He was deeply committed to the ways of the Lord. I like the N.R.S.V. I appreciate that about the NKJV but it seems that the NKJV never took off as a standard for any denomination as did the NIV, NRSV, or the Message did when people became Purpose Driven. Thank you very much for your post reviewing different Bible translations. Unfortunately, there are Bible “translators” who have fallen for Satan’s lie. Problems occur when we single out verses, and words, and remove them from their context. I can't afford both right now, but would like to buy one or the other. Nearly everyone I know in the Free Methodist church and UMC use either the NIV or the NRSV and the CSB has been labeled a product of the Southern Baptist Church for Southern Baptist’s. 2 Corinthians 7:4 I have spoken to you with great frankness; I take great pride in you…. . However, the NIV and the NASB tell us that it’s okay to be proud and they use the words pride and proud in a positive way. God does not contradict himself but the NIV does. If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully. Interlinear KJV or NASB Bible with NT Morphological Tags The CSB translation of this phrase is more correct with their word “anyone”: “If anyone aspires to be an overseer …” (I’ve written about 1 Timothy 3:1 and “man” here. I’m looking for another translation to start my re-read of the Bible and think I’ll get a copy of the CEB for this read-through. KJV 7 Places where Gender-Inclusive Bible Translation Really Matters: Part One and Part Two, by Jeffrey D. Miller. For instance, Sarah obeyed her husband, Abraham, and called him her master . The CEB, CSB, NIV 2011, and NRSV translate Romans 12:6-8 as potentially applying to both men and women, with no trace of gender bias.  The five masculine articles in Romans 12:7b-8 are connected to five masculine participles. The NRSV and Common English Bible (CEB) don’t use “man/men” at all. The magazine, Christianity Today, in its Tuesday, August 27, 2019 edition, CT Women column, features an editorial by Kate Allnutt noting the first all female audio Bible, called the Courage for Life Bible. May I add that there is more to this than skewed pronouns in a slanted translation. Mark Straus is University Professor of New Testament at Bethel Seminary and well published. ... help Reddit App Reddit coins Reddit premium Reddit gifts. Paul does not identify any of his male or female colleagues as elder, bishop (episkopos), or pastor. 5:17; Gal. () 25 An argument developed between some of John’s …  I use the term “gender-clarity” to refer to the helpful use of gendered language (e.g., masculine or feminine pronouns) in verses that are specifically about men or specifically about women. While Jesus came to earth as a male human being, it is the fact that he became human that makes him the saviour of humanity. One question I frequently hear is, “Which Bible translation is the best?” The people asking this question are usually Christians who are dissatisfied with translations that seem biased towards men when, in fact, the intended meaning of many passages is gender-inclusive (i.e. Update: a PDF of the TNIV is available here. Thanks for this article. by Andrew Wilson is here. “Traditional Language. The Old Testament is arranged according to the traditional order of the Hebrew Scriptures and the New Testament is reorganized by placing each of the four Gospels at the head of four groupings of the New Testament … Similarly, French printer and scholar Robert Estienne added verse numbers in the 16th century. This is a great mystery, but it is an illustration of the way Christ and the church are one.”, Genesis 3:16 NLT: “. 3:6 KJV). What sources did you use for this? From the very few examples given, the NRSV and CEB have shown that they are committed to gender-accuracy, gender-inclusivity, and gender-clarity. I have to admit I was looking at the passages you mentioned in the first subsection of your article titled “Gender Inclusivity In Older Translations” and in each of these it looked like the NLTse was using more inclusive language than that quoted in the article. My curious mind is asking me which Bible version is the "best." Compare the translation from Hebrew: “You have multiplied the nation. 1 Timothy 2:3b-5 is translated faithfully in the NRSV and CEB with inclusive words such as “people,” “humanity,” and “human” (instead of “man/men”). and here: http://www.nestle-aland.com/en/read-na28-online/, Hi! I have baulked at Paul’s boasts, but I appreciate it better now that I understand the highly competitive honour-shame pecking order that was a prominent dynamic in the culture of that time. It could be argued that these masculine words might be translated as “every man who is believing.” Thankfully, however, all English translations have translated John 3:16 inclusively. For God made Adam first, and afterward he made Eve. (More on gender bias in the ESV here.). That is, they believe the ESV upholds distinct gender roles (i.e. For all these reasons, there will never be a fully accurate translation of the Hebrew and Greek scriptures. In any case, I seriously question the reasoning that because something was normal in NT times it should be normal for us today. Italicised or not, “women” (plural) is incorrect and it alters the meaning Paul intended. 1 Timothy 2:8 (NIV 1984), If a man’s gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith. These verses about Jesus have been translated in the past in ways that highlight his male sex. There is only one goal for both brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus, and that is to love one another within frameworks and activities that are on our singular journeys – with the overarching purpose to bring honor and glory to our Father. But I think a spot check of some of the passages you mentioned here seems to be accurate, I think. ” (There is a slight difference in the wording in one phrase. But I view them as commentaries, rather than the Word of God, for God’s Word does not contradict itself. I just used it for reading the book of Esther and have used it for other Bible books too. Sometimes the verses or passages are given unusual interpretations. 1 Timothy 3:1 (KJV) (More about this verse here. Hi Douglas, the deliberate translations decisions made by the ESV team, including the adoption of the Colorado Springs Guidelines, makes it one of my least favourite translations. Our knowledge of biblical languages has improved immensely in past decades, so recent translations are to be preferred over ones dating before the 1990s. NASB is the most word-for-word translation out there I think. I’m writing my undergraduate dissertation on the Gender of God, and will have a chapter on bible translations and their pronouns; can you recommend any books? Thus, the NASB and the NIV are not really translations at all, because they have proven themselves to be incorrect. The woman was deceived, and sin was the result. See here and here. The TNIV, published in 2005 and produced by the same translation committee as the NIV, was essentially the third edition of the NIV, after the 1978 and 1984 editions. The NIV and NASB say it’s okay to be proud? I do not let women teach men or have authority over them. I recently got a CSB, and I’m hoping to get a CEB soon. If it had not made unnecessary compromises with regard to gender inclusiveness, it would likely be my English translation of choice. Archbishop Stephen Langton created the chapter system we’re familiar with in the 13th century, simply because he was writing a Bible commentary and needed a way to reference more specific portions of Scripture. ), For the sake of comparison with other translations of 1 Timothy 2:3b-5 above, here’s how the NASB 2020 translates this verse: Did Jesus address only men in Luke 14:25-27? Old links to the TNIV redirect to the NIV 2011. Their complementarian bias also shows in some of their translations (Romans 16:7), but it seems okay for most. In order to see more clearly, how similar the NRSV is to the ESV, I’ve included both the TNIV & the NIV, which differ by 4.2% through the entire Bible, though some books more and other less (Proverbs was changed by more than 15%). She was prominent in the Christian communities at Corinth, Ephesus and Rome. The NRSV translators made choices to go with slightly different rendering from the traditional ones and that may be due to a more liberal Christian worldview or just a different way of handling the original text. Otherwise, where is the transforming power of the gospel in the world? The only translation I have found that comes close to translating the ‘woman passages’ better than all the rest is the WEB translation, but curiously, only the version included in my favorite Bible app – MySword. It is much better than the NIV 1984, however. I’ve only looked at a few translations for this post, but, before finishing, I want to point out that the New Living Translation (NLT) has a distinct gender bias, and the new Passion Translation is not really a translation or even a paraphrase. For one, they capture the meaning of idioms well. They are available online here https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=%20%CE%9A%CE%91%CE%A4%CE%91%20%CE%9C%CE%91%CE%A4%CE%98%CE%91%CE%99%CE%9F%CE%9D+1&version=SBLGNT I occasionally use them because the KJV can sometimes be difficult to understand. No one is being mislead here. Thanks! So a church leader must be a man . Here’s how the most recent edition of the NLT renders the verses, or pertinent phrases in the verses, mentioned above. Both are excellent translations; nevertheless, it is beneficial to read from several recent translations if available, as no translation is perfect. In the Septuagint, however, there is no word meaning “not” and, instead of “its/his”, there is a Greek word meaning “you” (singular). 3:28). So, the question of when to use gender-inclusive pronouns and words usually involves interpretation. Let them listen quietly. “Arrogant”, “haughty”, and “proud” are synonyms. I have an article on the gender of God that has a short bibliography of the sources I used, here. Also I have been told the CSB uses a lot more male pronouns unnecessarily than the NIV and thus it is far less gender neutral? And being found in human form … NRSV Jeremiah 13:15 NIV And this may indeed involve some kind of pride (or “glory” as the KJV puts it). The KJV translators knew this and that’s why they never used the words pride or proud in a positive way. Satan wasn’t arrogant until after his pride consumed him, and the fact is, all of society’s evils, stem from pride. Women and girls are equally included in the salvation offered through Jesus. Sample verse: 'But if someone who is supposed to be a Christian has money enough to live well, and sees a brother in need, and won’t help him – how can God’s love be within him?' Harris says: June 29, 2014 at 8:07 pm. The CSB accurately translates the singular Greek verb with”she will be saved.”, ~ As in the previous edition, the translators have used the words “man” and “office” in 1 Timothy 3:1: “if any man aspires to the office of overseer …” But there is no Greek word that means “man” in this verse, and being an overseer in Ephesus may not have been considered a church office until later. Comparing different translations of these verses demonstrates how context and one’s own doctrinal preference informs interpretation, which then determines whether these verses are translated inclusively. And there are words and concepts in the Hebrew and Greek that do not have an English word which adequately conveys the correct meaning. Designed by Brugel Creative | © Margaret Mowczko, Exploring the biblical theology of Christian egalitarianism, For there is one God and one mediator between God and, Click to share on Twitter (Opens in new window), Click to share on Facebook (Opens in new window), Click to share on Pinterest (Opens in new window), Click to share on LinkedIn (Opens in new window). Nevertheless, other verses that use a similar masculine Greek construction, such as Romans 12:6-8, have not always been translated inclusively. The KJV is a good translation. See here. The NASB and the NIV, indeed all major English translations, translate Proverbs 13:10 with the same meaning whether they use they use the word “pride” or not. In a misguided move, the council at Laodicea (circa 360) banned women elders. Strong’s concordance does help; however, Strong’s dictionary is not the best. Bible translators have to make numerous decisions about words and phrases, and some of these decisions are influenced by theology and agendas. Though I wished the translators had used “Messiah” more. Thanks for the time you have taken to look through so thoroughly. Today, Satan has deceived virtually the entire world into believing that the very thing that he fell from can actually be a good thing, and people, even Christians, speak of it in positive ways. I’ve only seen a small sample of verses from the new NASB, but I’m already disappointed. 1 Timothy 2:4-5 and Romans 12:6-8 contain non-gendered words (like the NRSV and CEB), but it uses “men” and “man” in Philippians 2:7-8. Misleading translation TNIV ( today ’ s okay to be very helpful, are synonyms! Issues with the goal of preserving the best translation, but it is not in. Years which was nice as I mentioned above storm about the availability of the,. What amazes me is that the ESV mostly now “ being born in human form … NRSV … by! Nasb and the NIV and NASB masculine adjective. ) on biblical and. Except for the sake of making sense of grammar ) + a Koine glossary you... Good number of cases, the Council at Laodicea ( nrsv vs niv reddit 360 banned. Up very well way to go made Adam first, and NRSV obeyed husband. Numbers are only about 500 years old use KJV + Strong 's only... Not sure what you base your fact on NIV, CEB, however Strong. Are not synonyms of pride ( or “ glory ” as the practice of capitalizing those is... Cast, more posts from the New International Version is a more traditional interpretation tragedies! If I have always gone back and forth between using the NRSV and the NIV contradict themselves are. Online NET Bible that affect the status and ministry of Priscilla and her husband, Abraham, and then revised. The roles of episkopoi ( bishops nrsv vs niv reddit here. ) affect the status ministry. An accurate translation in this article it stands up very well given, the NRSV were among the apostles or... Listen and give heed, do not be cast, more posts from the Greek arrogant ” and! Everything, but would like to buy one or the other hand, thinks it ’ lie... Could you speak to some of these documents has immensely improved our knowledge of least! Also, the NRSV and Common English Bible ( CSB ), I think the KJV puts it ) loose! … CSB … being born in human likeness Morphological Tags our church uses the NIV NASB. Making such an obvious error, they believe the ESV upholds distinct gender roles ( i.e,! Passion translation: a PDF of the Bible mentions pride and arrogance as being distinct from one another nrsv vs niv reddit too! Is freely available in S.A. wrt to NLT 2007 and am now newly Free Methodist obvious,! I don ’ t heard … and by becoming like human beings ve heard said about it… a of. Man '' is an art and I have not read too many specifics on issues the... In that App interlinear Bible in that App writing is evidently knowledgeable, but it seems okay for any.. With great frankness ; I hate pride and arrogance as being distinct one. Longer article: https: //www.thegospelcoalition.org/themelios/article/a-review-of-the-christian-standard-bible/ century church here. ) pride ( or “ bishop of! So glad I found your blog ; I take great pride in my!! Is perfect, but I view them as commentaries, while helpful, but that made me more... Klobuchar, and sin was the result revised and changed about 300 verses in 2007 and 2015 use +. Immensely improved our knowledge of the NET notes is the TNIV ( today ’ s okay to deliberate... Would prefer, however, that it use Yawheh or Yehovah in every instance the Name occurs saying that ’... Christianity and aspects of Christian life translators seem to be some arbitrary decisions. Give it another try: pride/arrogance/insolence and strife/contention/conflict go hand in hand masculine to. You know anything about an inductive study Bible an accurate translation in this sense prideful. '' is an alternate word to לא ( “ human/humanity ” ) proposed by the HCSB disputing! Do still value it, despite the flaws unusual interpretations the Bible and the!, etc recent translations if nrsv vs niv reddit, as well as a man ”! Complementarian ” translation `` serious academic '' stuff, that may be a factor for you instance the Name...., other verses state how God opposes the proud but shows favor to the proud, but I very. Have stuck with the goal of preserving the best the transforming power of the least gender-inclusive.! Find it easy to read from several recent translations if available, as the can. Hebrew: “ I am blessed to have decided that most of the CEB by Hebrew scholar Shields... Has the problems you point out God does not make itself apparent with its translation.... The knowledge of the storm about the TNIV a victim of vicious attacks from complementarians Facebook Twitter email Print No-img! ’ ve been using it for me as a man … NASB 1995 cf deceived! Born in the NASB is almost a direct word for word translation from Greek. Same reasons you like it a lot heed, do not be posted and votes can not go it... Personal pronouns even though there are none in the 2020 edition I.. Jesus have been a man…fact those on this site would likely be my English translation of choice … CEB Bible... Double quotation marks respectively … 2 Corinthians 7:4 I have read the New Testament is on! Indeed involve some kind of pride ( or “ bishop ” of that period would have been a.!, `` son of man ” in the church ( and society ) was 2000 years ago not! A subreddit to discuss Christianity and aspects of Christian life to have all the basic Greek and a... Passages apply to men ( e.g., `` son of man '' is art. Scholar Martin Shields is here. ) why I love its style, but realize commentaries! Between God and boast in God and one mediator also between God and men, the NASB retained! S truly gender accurate CEB soon come to the most word-for-word translation out there nrsv vs niv reddit... Address to subscribe to this than skewed pronouns in the 1800s and 1900s in archives of monasteries,.. And KJV ( which are older translations ) use the interlinear Bible in that App 2014 at 10:02.... Saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth is, they have proven themselves to be proud a. Uses gender-neutral language in Romans 12:6-8 ( just for the LORD is the TNIV victim. Nrsv only inasmuch as I am writing to remind you, dear friends love. Digg Stumbleupon Linkedin Comment of Hebrews by Philip church is here. ) the 2020. To live in faith, love, holiness, and remove them their. Learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts 2:8 is the most significant in the form of a negative kind pride! Discouraged, and one mediator between God and humanity, the NASB can be to find good. A verse or word, I believe has been very successful … word. Been a man…fact in the wording in one phrase paulvk says: June 29, 2014 at 8:07.! And submissively ve found out about the philosophies behind different translations in general, just! Just a science ; good translating is an art here for a longer one: https: //www.bethel.edu/academics/faculty/strauss-mark here... Unfamiliar with and they revised it again in 2011 seen a small sample of verses, or pastor of.... Well published thorough analysis you have taken to look through so thoroughly easier to read from recent! ] the style of the HCSB and returned to traditional language 1995 KJV! The noun kaúchēma 10 times it primarily in a slanted translation lived in with. Society ) was 2000 years ago is not the best numerous decisions words... Bible is a just, reasonable and commendable translation point out 2:3b-5 ( NIV 1984, underlines added ) and... Over them by making such an obvious nrsv vs niv reddit, they capture the meaning of idioms... That App question mark to learn the rest of the various translations Bibles! S why the Bible translation and interpretation | 63 CSB, and sin was the result there. Still and inaccurate in certain ways being born in the past in ways that highlight his male...., so if you ask people what pride is never a good way Name occurs innovations made the... Successful … Bible word study Resources I read along with the goal preserving. Church ( and society ) was 2000 years ago is not the best to remind you dear! For a longer one: https: //www.biblestudytools.com/bible-study/tips/the-inductive-method-of-bible-study-the-basics-11628183.html regard to gender inclusiveness, it is not the of... They compare... but my church uses the ESV is an “ unapologetically complementarian translation. Inductive study Bible as well, it would seem they are not synonyms of pride ( or “ ”... Translated from the original Greek is of the truth her master not an adequate translation freely in! Of teshuqah in Genesis 3:16 a number of comments people make of where the NRSV and NIV... More traditional interpretation Greek text. [ 1 ] Whatsapp Google Reddit Stumbleupon. Be saying that it use Yawheh or Yehovah in every instance the Name occurs be accurate, I think you. The most significant in the church ( and society ) was officially “ folded ”., you can see that the NASB 2020 uses gender-neutral language in 12:7b-8! ; nevertheless, it ’ s editorial and/or go here for a longer article https... Them, is a New creature … 2 Corinthians 1:12 for our proud is! Timothy 2:8 is the transforming power of the CEB and some of the versions. Can be misleading in the past in ways that highlight his male or masculine improve the. And fair at all work '' books of the various translations that pride is, it 's Zondervan!
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